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Poster: 5string Date: Jul 22, 2004 6:11am
Forum: etree Subject: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

This is a good argument for high quality lossy file availabilty. It took me from 2004/07/17 05:03 to 2004/07/20 11:39 to download this ftp://audio26.archive.org/1/audio/wh2004-04-08.shnf show. That's over 78 hours at avg. 2.9K/sec with my 28.8 dialup connection out here in the boonies running 24/7. All that time and guess what I did with the .shns... I made .wavs and then fired up EAC w/LAME and made vbr .mp3s then tossed the .shns & .wavs. **shudders among the elitists!** I never hear any difference between vbr .mp3s made with EAC and .wavs and I done extensive blind listening tests with a variety of material through AKG headphones and JBL studio speakers. I don't understand why the purists whine about losing the inaudible material of an audio file. I can fit over a hundred .mp3s on a CD-R and they sound the same and I don't have to lug around so many CDs as in uncompressed format and everything plays .mp3s nowadays. Sure, if I still had broadband I'd prefer lossless, but my location only leaves me with dialup or pay though the nose for satellite which throttles downloaders connections back after two hours until you reconnect. High price, very poor service.
So my plea to all who this concerns is to have pity on me and my kind and try to have .oggs or vbr .mp3s available in addition to lossless files as much as possible. Great link here> www.chrismyden.com for learning about highest quality .mp3s.
In a related subject, why do some shows by the same band and same taper/uploader have lossy files available and other shows by the same band/taper/uploader only have lossless. Is it just a matter of no one has gotten around to making the lossy alternative files yet or is there another reason?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffJonathan Aizen Date: Jul 29, 2004 5:10am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

why do some shows by the same band and same taper/uploader have lossy files available and other shows by the same band/taper/uploader only have lossless. Is it just a matter of no one has gotten around to making the lossy alternative files yet or is there another reason?

About 10,000 shows reside on servers that do not have enough space to have the derivatives made. We'll be taking care of this in the near future.

Jon

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Poster: 5string Date: Jul 29, 2004 12:16pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

About 10,000 shows reside on servers that do not have enough space to have the derivatives made. We'll be taking care of this in the near future.
Ah! I see. Thanks for the reply. I await patiently. Looking forward to more of those Del McCoury shows. :)

This post was modified by 5string on 2004-07-29 19:16:07

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Poster: glenn Date: Jul 30, 2004 5:23am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

However you may choose to listen to these shows is fine... it's not the listenability of a given show, it's the generational loss from mp3>cd>cd>cd that's causing the shudders...

if you EAC the cdr though, [no offense meant here] that's exactly ignorant, since the .shn files could have been directly decompressed to the original wavs, then you could encode the original wavs to mp3 or ogg vorbis or whatever...

and while I'm in this neighborhood, have you calibrated, tested EAC? when you get .shn files, decompress and pass checksum, you have the 'master file'

... now try these experiments to prove to yourself whatever these experiments prove to you:

[you will need a shn file, the decompressed wav file, the shn.md5 and you will need a wav.md5 generated from the shn-extracted wav file]

EXPERIMENT ONE:
take your 'master' wavs and burn an audio disc >
extract that disc to wav >
use the checksum generated from the master wav file to check the new extracted wavs... if they pass, your EAC is set up to do exact copies... if not, then you do not have EAC set right and are NOT extracting without corruption. [EAC IS capable of exact copies, but it MUST be set up correctly first]

EXPERIMENT TWO:
from your 'master wavs' (the ones that were decompressed from the shn file and passed the md5 checksum test) >
create mp3s >
burn them as audio to an audio disc >
extract this second disc to wavs >
do a checksum verification on the new mp3 sourced wav files using the original wav.md5... do they pass?
[they dont pass, (they can't possibly pass as the file is changed)]

now generate a second checksum for these new wavs>
burn another audio disc from these 'second-disk wavs'>
extract this third disc using EAC>
generate a third md5 from the newly extracted files>
test the new files to see if they pass verification using the first or second md5
checksums>
open each md5 file in notepad>
note that the checksums are entirely different in all 3 files.

This should prove beyond doubt that each generation of digital copies (fromma lossy source such as mp3) has different digits... within an appallingly short time, generationally speaking, this process will result in horrible firghteningly bad noises...

but the 'non-elitist' guy with the original shn files could be burning perfect copies easier than burning mp3 copies... his music is fine, but he's sharing the flawed copies, he doesn't care about those that come after him in line, they can have the pops and whooshes and garngggkkkgg noise on them.

the 'elitists' as you call them. are actually trying to preserve the files from loss, so that you, one hundred generations down the road can have the SAME PERFECT FILE THAT THEY HAVE, in fact that seems to me to be the very opposite of elitist.

do what you want to the music, just don't do your favorite artists the disservice of circulating the bad copies.. because now you have proven to yourself that though they don't sound differently to you, discs with a lossy compression generation will produce digit errors when copied.

I have thousands of mp3s myself purely for listening to while working on the computer,but if I give you a copy, it will be the original master recording, not from one of the mp3s.

I have stacks and stacks of shns, just so that I can 'non-elitistly' share the same quality music that was given to me...
sharing seems to me to be the thing that runs this machine, and I prefer to share files that are impervious to generational loss.

I hope this was of some help to someone somewhere.
glenn



This post was modified by glenn on 2004-07-30 12:23:44

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Poster: 5string Date: Jul 30, 2004 3:55pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

My EAC is set up according to Chris Myden. All hail the Uber Fuhrer!! It rips 100% exact copies if the source CD is not damaged. It will tell you the % of accuracy that it was able to read the disc.
As far as making copies, I don't anticipate it happening and if someone wants a copy I'll tell them archive dot org. That's what the archive is for. I've got maybe 50 cassettes of Dead and other groups shows, some really rare stuff, mostly collected in the early eighties and have yet to make copy 1 for anybody. So, basically I think most people are the end user of what they download from here. Yes, I shudder at the thought of digital dummies changing the format back and forth wav>mp3>wav>mp3>wav>mp3 a hundred times over. That why the digital audio education of the uninitiated is so important. And if I was to make copies I would make an exact copy of a (data) vbr.mp3 CD-R which would lose no quality since I don't burn in .cda format. The 100th copy would be identical to the 1st.
As far those sonic elitists who think .shns are are an exact copy of the master, I bring up the old analog versus digital argument and remind everyone that people don't hear in 1s and 0s and the actual analog performance is completely lost in a digital copy. So whether you listen in .mp3, .shn, .wav, .flac, or .ogg it ain't analog, it ain't real and it's only 1s and 0s tricking your brain. As long as my brain thinks it's real, that's what counts!

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Poster: glenn Date: Aug 1, 2004 8:08pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!




Thanks you two, that made it worth the effort of writing that out.

yes, it's true that 'you lose some music' in any digital format, compared to the original vibrations of the air -the sound itself.

all of my references to shn being identical to the original master refer to the original source .wav files themselves... in which case,shn does in fact make bit-perfect replicas of the original wav.

I like the free shows out of the blue idea..but 'mailbomb' is a scary word. Cheers for turning people on to free music!

I agree that it's great to send someone to archive.org for music, but I find it really fun to keep some discs of various bands with me, all of which I label: "www,archive.org" in addition to labeling the show.

I love to turn someone on to resources like this one.

edit:afterthought: and it occurs to me that none of this is real, it's all empty space filled with the music of the spheres: dancing electrons etc, and all that's really there is information ... this is all a dream we dreamed one afternoon long ago, and in the beginning was the word, and all of us are bundles of information ourselves

This post was modified by glenn on 2004-08-02 03:08:30

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Poster: intexity Date: Jan 22, 2007 8:13pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

i am glad to have found this post as i was researching the exact issue at hand. i like to make the shows i download readily available for all and keeping them in original condition definitely being one of my major concerns with this project of mine. yes i was a heathen out of ignorance for about 15 disks worth but realized that i probably needed to know more about burning to cd-r and passing them on considering the amount of work it took just to listen to the file types. so as i set up EAC and was researching how to make it burn straight to cd-r from shorten i came across this post. my only question is can you help me make sure i set up eac right or else tell me if there is any way you can help me understand more about how to work with these file types (shn,flac,etc..) i want to do my part as i was too late to see the shows but want to do my part to keep the history alive.

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Poster: glenn Date: Jan 23, 2007 2:01pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

Best way to make audio cds from shn or flac files,
I think,
is to decompress (.shn or .flac) to .wav format,

using appropriate tools

(see this thread:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=36219
for easy to understand info on tools...)

(the .wav files will be bit-perfect identical to the original source .wav used to make the .shn/or/.flac)

and use the .wav files as your source file to burn your audio discs, using any burning program that burns audio, like Nero, or Easy CD creator or whatever you are already comfortable with.

EAC is only necessary if you are trying to make copies using an audio cd as your source, which you only should do if there is not a lower-generation copy (like your 'perfect original .wav files you got when you decompressed your .shn or .flac files)

because (encoding onto an audio cd and then) copying from that cd introduces 'generational loss' of data...

... but you get no generational loss if you use .wav files which are bit-perfict replicas of the originals (which is what you get with LOSSLESS compression formats like .shn or .flac)(as opposed to LOSSY formats like .mp3 or .mp-anything-else or .ogg or the like)

Hope this helps. I get an email if you post in this thread, so if you have more questions... AND I can answer them, I will.

Have fun.

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Poster: intexity Date: Jan 23, 2007 2:23pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

ok so if i got this right the way i have been doing it which is using mkw to convert to wav and using nero to burn is ok but if someone tries to go backwards and use one of my cd's to create a compression file whatever format they want will it remain as good as the original shn that i dled?
thanks for your response it sounds like i was overthinking everything i was reading.

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Poster: ChinaDog Date: Jul 30, 2004 5:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

heh

man that was so good Im gonna reburn everything I have and my files are all wav from shn already!
I make mp3s@320 for my HD that I NEVER intended to pass on but I feel so guilty for burning shows and dumping the shns Im gonna re download them all to save "just in case" and burn everything on better media because your right .. it deserves it

In fact im going to "mailbomb" some people on the deadhook forums with perfect copys from those shns!
(that means mail someone s show not on on their list without them asking for it... for those who might not be familiar with the term)

that was a good post THANK YOU

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Poster: mickey622 Date: Jul 22, 2004 8:04am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

I agree with you about the mp3's quality. They usually sound fine. I have a cable hookup so I usually go for the shn's but when I'm at work I always do mp3's to check out a band or a show.
When I download shn's I convert to wav and almost always bump up the volume through cooledit before I burn. I usually then convert the wav to mp3 for my mp3 player. They always sound good.
I'm with you and feel your pain...
(28.8... ouch)

This post was modified by mickey622 on 2004-07-22 15:04:51

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Poster: ChinaDog Date: Jul 22, 2004 9:00am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

I have cable....

Im getting 4hrs 37 mins left @ 2% for a "whole show" of shns
thats about 4 hours longer than the last show I DL 8(

I hope something works out soon to everyones mutual benefit

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Poster: dylan66 Date: Jul 29, 2004 4:14am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

I attempted my first download yesterday. i went for the 8-5-77 show as i have read so much about it. as i do not have broadband i just downloaded track by track VBR MP3. it took most of the day. i then burned onto 3 discs as audio using nero and selected no pause between tracks. i just want to know if this is a good way to go about it? am i gonna lose quality? i am not particually bothered about the speed it takes just the end quality. also what is the difference between VBR MP3 and 64 Kbps MP3?
as you can see i am new to this and could do with some help and advise on the best way to go about things?
Cheers

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Poster: Adrock13 Date: Jul 29, 2004 4:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

Because you have dial-up, SHN's are nearly impossible to wait for, but those would be the best quality to download and burn...You would need to convert them to WAV first, using MKW Audio or something like that...

Question is: Are you happy with the quality? I've got 2000 hours and have been downloading VBRmp3's and have been happy...the 64k ones are probably a little downgraded...I think VBRs are a happy medium between 64k and SHN...you're doing good!!! Check out 7-18-76 Orpheum!

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Poster: dylan66 Date: Jul 29, 2004 4:37am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

cheers for advise!
scott

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Poster: glenn Date: Jul 29, 2004 7:01am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

ok,
heres the big thing... if you can't tell the difference, the mp3s are fine, but, if you burn them to audio for a friend and they rip the files from your mp3 sourced audio disc, there WILL, absolutely and certainly, be errors in the copy, and these errors, increase generationally, inexorably and unpreventably.

So if you are going to give this to a friend:
1. download the .shn format and burn perfect discs from the original .wav files.
or
2. give your friend the mp3 files to play
or
3. at least burn your audio discs from the mp3 files rather than copying from your audio disc and the errors resulting from that
4.find someone with a fast connection and turn them onto this site...
5. trade lossless shn files by mail
6. download mp3s until you find a show you really want to share, then take the time to download it or get someone to download it for you and burn copies...
any show that is available in lossless format, try to get it in lossless format... even if it takes a long time.

see etree.org for some great FAQs on 'why not to circulate lossy files' and 'how to get lossless perfect files' ...there are a lot of people who will make perfect .shn copies for you, like you send them blank discs and return postage and they burn them for you...etree is a good place to start with that.

I don't have unlimited time, but I have lots of high quality dead to share, lots of others do too.The etree community is really a great place to start...
drglenn AT dr.com

and welcome home, brother

This post was modified by glenn on 2004-07-29 14:01:11

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Poster: dylan66 Date: Jul 29, 2004 7:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

Glenn
Currently I download MP3 VBR and burn to CD as audio using Nero.I am really new to this. Is what I am doing OK? I do not have broadband at present but have been recently turned onto GD and am keen to download some classic shows. cheers for help.

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Poster: glenn Date: Jul 29, 2004 7:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

http://wso.williams.edu/~jmaster/shnmp3/

this website compares shn to mp3 to show that while the quality is measurably degraded, the 256 mp3s are not too badly distorted...

HOWEVER, if you make an audio disc from an mp3 and it gets copied a few times, there will be audible artifacts... try this: get the very cleanest sounding mp3 you have, burn it to an audio disc, copy the disc, label it '2', copy 2, label it '3', copy 3, label the new disc '4'... then critically listen to disc 4 (third generation from your 'master' mp3)critically and compare to you 'original'.... any difference you hear, that's the reason not to circulate the mp3 based recordings.

There's no reason not to download these in mp3 and enjoy them yourself, but circulating them is considered by many in the music community to be a breach of etiquette similar to photocopying photocopies of an original work of art...

especially since these are already available worldwide for download.

Shn, or flac, on the other hand,decompresses to the original .wav file, so every copy of the show in .shn format is a pure absolutely perfect copy of the orginal master wav... after any number of generations.

I used to have dialup,so I totally symathise with the dilemma... but I have downloaded LOTS of shows in .shn format, it takes patience, but when you are done you have something to be proud of, that you can freely share without any qualms that you are doing anyone a disservice.

again there is a great FAQ on all this at etree.org if you want to set up a trade by mail, or want some more detailed help that you can't find a FAQ for email me, my address is a few posts back. Replace ' AT ' with '@'

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Poster: dylan66 Date: Jul 29, 2004 3:42pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

Hi Glenn

Cheers for the advice. Basically I love GD but am totally new to this sort of thing. My collection is basically the main CD's and some Dicks Picks. You have to start somewhere and I wish to start now.

I have so far downloaded 1 show and burned via nero onto audio cd. I can not see that I will be copying these CD's but saying that I do wish to go for the best quality I can possibly get.

I do not have broadband, so the one show I have downloaded (5/8/77) was done via mp3 vbn. It took a fair few hours but sounds good (to me). I do not mind waiting longer if you advice me to. Also I am not sure exactly what the descriptions mean for the downloads. Should I be going for the show in one go? If so it will probably take about a day. This is OK if it is a safe option. What exactly do all the different options mean eg.? Which is basically best? Also when I download a complete show, does it show as individual tracks?

Sorry to be a pain but I'm so new to this and just want to listen to some great shows.
Cheers so much for any help you can give.

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Poster: dylan66 Date: Jul 29, 2004 7:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Over 3 days to download just 1 show!!!

Glenn
Currently I download MP3 VBR and burn to CD as audio using Nero.I am really new to this. Is what I am doing OK? I do not have broadband at present but have been recently turned onto GD and am keen to download some classic shows. cheers for help.